Comments on: OCD http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/ We are Flesh-and-Spirit on a journey to Integral Unity with God. Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:24:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Huw http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/comment-page-1/#comment-606 Huw Thu, 31 May 2007 04:24:37 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/#comment-606 Thanks, everyone for the discussion. I appreciate the tone, very much. And Todd, thanks very much for your support as it means rather a lot. To pull it back on topic... "All of us made a choice from a huge buffet: high church, low church, clap-happy mega-church, boutique ethnic piety, whatever… we picked the one that worked for us. " Avoiding the rest of the comments, please, or at least let your host have the last word. Thanks, everyone for the discussion. I appreciate the tone, very much. And Todd, thanks very much for your support as it means rather a lot.

To pull it back on topic…

“All of us made a choice from a huge buffet: high church, low church, clap-happy mega-church, boutique ethnic piety, whatever… we picked the one that worked for us. ”

Avoiding the rest of the comments, please, or at least let your host have the last word.

]]> By: Fr. Andrew http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/comment-page-1/#comment-605 Fr. Andrew Thu, 31 May 2007 01:32:46 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/#comment-605 Todd referenced a "very staunch ultra pious, superior religious outlook on the Orthodox faith." I can't speak for Huw, but I can certainly say that that outlook has always repelled me. I've always gotten the impression that it repelled him, too. I think our association had less to do with the sectarian impulse and more to do with our running into one another on LiveJournal, back when the number of Orthodox Christians there could possibly have been counted on just a few hands. (He's been there since 6/02, while I've been there since the year before.) And thanks for the advice. I've always tried to behave that way, though obviously not to your satisfaction. Alas, it seems that no matter what one says, someone will think it "blurbing out a bunch of gobbly gook, and ultra religious babble." I imagine this won't be the last time. Todd referenced a “very staunch ultra pious, superior religious outlook on the Orthodox faith.”

I can’t speak for Huw, but I can certainly say that that outlook has always repelled me. I’ve always gotten the impression that it repelled him, too. I think our association had less to do with the sectarian impulse and more to do with our running into one another on LiveJournal, back when the number of Orthodox Christians there could possibly have been counted on just a few hands. (He’s been there since 6/02, while I’ve been there since the year before.)

And thanks for the advice. I’ve always tried to behave that way, though obviously not to your satisfaction. Alas, it seems that no matter what one says, someone will think it “blurbing out a bunch of gobbly gook, and ultra religious babble.” I imagine this won’t be the last time.

]]> By: Todd http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/comment-page-1/#comment-604 Todd Thu, 31 May 2007 01:15:10 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/#comment-604 True it is very possible that you were quite chummy, but due to his own admittance it may have been because you both shared a very staunch ultra pious, superior religious outlook on the Orthodox faith. But what you failed to see was the interior struggle that he went through on a daily basis combating absolutism with the person that God created him to be. It was unhealthy, the same unhealthy that I have heard from many, and I am not talking about just Orthodox here. I think really what it comes down to is tact, which is why for the most part I keep quiet. I tend to be a pretty straightforward person, so most of the time I just prefer to keep my mouth shut, and sometimes I don't. Maybe sometime you should think about what your going to say before just blurbing out a bunch of gobbly gook, and ultra religious babble. Most of the time I just skip over most of your posts, sometimes at the sacrifice of missing out on some good content, but most of that just gets covered over by a bunch of over zealous junk. Well I am going to take my own advice now, and remove my fingers from the keyboard. Maybe you will be tempted to do so also. True it is very possible that you were quite chummy, but due to his own admittance it may have been because you both shared a very staunch ultra pious, superior religious outlook on the Orthodox faith. But what you failed to see was the interior struggle that he went through on a daily basis combating absolutism with the person that God created him to be. It was unhealthy, the same unhealthy that I have heard from many, and I am not talking about just Orthodox here. I think really what it comes down to is tact, which is why for the most part I keep quiet. I tend to be a pretty straightforward person, so most of the time I just prefer to keep my mouth shut, and sometimes I don’t. Maybe sometime you should think about what your going to say before just blurbing out a bunch of gobbly gook, and ultra religious babble. Most of the time I just skip over most of your posts, sometimes at the sacrifice of missing out on some good content, but most of that just gets covered over by a bunch of over zealous junk.

Well I am going to take my own advice now, and remove my fingers from the keyboard. Maybe you will be tempted to do so also.

]]> By: Huw http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/comment-page-1/#comment-602 Huw Thu, 31 May 2007 00:20:16 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/#comment-602 You're on the right time line. But you're missing half the story (not your fault)... the half that has nothing to do with the dean... or with you, even. And everything to do with the way such actions pushed buttons b/c they were "triggered" if you will, by another priest. I have not posted that half, because, as with others who share the story, it makes me so angry as to be unhealthy. I try - and sometimes fail - to divide (in my mind) that one priest and the rest of the clergy. But the rest of the clergy can trigger those buttons very easily now. Even Fr G and Fr P whom I've met in person - the MOST unlike that priest possible - I did so with distinct fear. I realise, Fr A, that one reason it is easy for you to trigger those buttons is because I've never met you in person - even after 5 or 6 years of online interaction. And forgive me for the projections. But that's all I've got. You’re on the right time line.
But you’re missing half the story (not your fault)… the half that has nothing to do with the dean… or with you, even. And everything to do with the way such actions pushed buttons b/c they were “triggered” if you will, by another priest. I have not posted that half, because, as with others who share the story, it makes me so angry as to be unhealthy.

I try – and sometimes fail – to divide (in my mind) that one priest and the rest of the clergy. But the rest of the clergy can trigger those buttons very easily now. Even Fr G and Fr P whom I’ve met in person – the MOST unlike that priest possible – I did so with distinct fear.

I realise, Fr A, that one reason it is easy for you to trigger those buttons is because I’ve never met you in person – even after 5 or 6 years of online interaction. And forgive me for the projections. But that’s all I’ve got.

]]> By: Fr. Andrew http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/comment-page-1/#comment-601 Fr. Andrew Thu, 31 May 2007 00:06:28 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/#comment-601 Well, believe it or not, Todd, your roomie and I actually used to be quite chummy on the Internet (much was made about "Our Birthday," for instance), but I think that you must have only seen the relatively more recent interaction. At some point, there was a decided turn in our interaction, which I'm fairly sure dates from when Huw posted rather nasty things about my confessor after he, as dean, denied the possibility of St. Raphael's becoming WR. It hasn't been good ever since. Well, believe it or not, Todd, your roomie and I actually used to be quite chummy on the Internet (much was made about “Our Birthday,” for instance), but I think that you must have only seen the relatively more recent interaction. At some point, there was a decided turn in our interaction, which I’m fairly sure dates from when Huw posted rather nasty things about my confessor after he, as dean, denied the possibility of St. Raphael’s becoming WR. It hasn’t been good ever since.

]]> By: Todd http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/comment-page-1/#comment-600 Todd Wed, 30 May 2007 23:33:32 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/#comment-600 Hmmm, sounds like a book in the making. 5 Minute K(c)ookery and other fine dishes. Hmmm, sounds like a book in the making. 5 Minute K(c)ookery and other fine dishes.

]]> By: Huw http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/comment-page-1/#comment-599 Huw Wed, 30 May 2007 22:52:03 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/#comment-599 As you wish. I've not left the Church - just not practising any eastern flavours of it at the moment. If anything, I feel when I drew the box so tight as to exclude all the other flavours, I'd left the Church. <i>deconstructing Orthodoxy by means of the kinds of things converts say.</i> I do like that. I think I may have to make it a mission statement for the blog to replace the old one - "Anti-western Kookery". I like that a lot. It was, after all, the kinds of things Converts say (what I've called "hype" in this post) that looped me in. FMG, Peter Gilquist, bloggers, online mailing groups, etc. I'm quite sure the community of people following God in the way of Jesus is still there under all the hype, I'm just moving back to a non-hyping pew. As you wish.

I’ve not left the Church – just not practising any eastern flavours of it at the moment.

If anything, I feel when I drew the box so tight as to exclude all the other flavours, I’d left the Church.

deconstructing Orthodoxy by means of the kinds of things converts say.

I do like that. I think I may have to make it a mission statement for the blog to replace the old one – “Anti-western Kookery”. I like that a lot.

It was, after all, the kinds of things Converts say (what I’ve called “hype” in this post) that looped me in. FMG, Peter Gilquist, bloggers, online mailing groups, etc.

I’m quite sure the community of people following God in the way of Jesus is still there under all the hype, I’m just moving back to a non-hyping pew.

]]> By: Todd http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/comment-page-1/#comment-598 Todd Wed, 30 May 2007 22:40:19 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/#comment-598 LOL, well we all know I don't post to often, nor comment to often, and to be honest I really don't feel like sitting here picking all this apart. But, I have to say Andrew as I have watched you respond over the years,is that your responses in most cases are neither charitable, nor a living example of the God you claim to profess, but instead prideful and judgemental. Books and history can say numerous things, but it doesn't mean it's the truth. I could write a book tomorrow, read it in a coffee shop, 50 years later throw it down into book form, and it would be completely different over those years passed, and the language would also be interpreted differently. So lets cut the crap, none of us really KNOW, in the end it's all a product of faith. So lets get off our high horses, so that IF Orthodoxy is the true faith then people will see it in it's members. But as long as people like you and Joey are out there cutting down everyone who doesn't agree with YOUR form of Orthodoxy, then you will continue to see people leaving the church, as well as the faith, because in their mind it's NOT the Church. Excuse my bluntness, and my judgement, and I pray that God has more mercy on me than some of those who post here. LOL, well we all know I don’t post to often, nor comment to often, and to be honest I really don’t feel like sitting here picking all this apart. But, I have to say Andrew as I have watched you respond over the years,is that your responses in most cases are neither charitable, nor a living example of the God you claim to profess, but instead prideful and judgemental. Books and history can say numerous things, but it doesn’t mean it’s the truth. I could write a book tomorrow, read it in a coffee shop, 50 years later throw it down into book form, and it would be completely different over those years passed, and the language would also be interpreted differently. So lets cut the crap, none of us really KNOW, in the end it’s all a product of faith. So lets get off our high horses, so that IF Orthodoxy is the true faith then people will see it in it’s members. But as long as people like you and Joey are out there cutting down everyone who doesn’t agree with YOUR form of Orthodoxy, then you will continue to see people leaving the church, as well as the faith, because in their mind it’s NOT the Church.

Excuse my bluntness, and my judgement, and I pray that God has more mercy on me than some of those who post here.

]]> By: Fr. Andrew http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/comment-page-1/#comment-597 Fr. Andrew Wed, 30 May 2007 22:15:47 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/#comment-597 The post was a personal attack from the start, and a rather sarcastic one, to boot! But I don't think you really mean to veer the conversation away from personal attacks so long as what I write is characterized as clericalism (which is, again, ironically one of the local attitudes I've been fighting for the last three years up here in Little Moscow). But I suspect my sin here is simply in being ordained. Alas. Just to be clear: I'm not your pastor and I don't think of myself as your pastor. I wasn't offering pastoral advice or comment, just the experience of having read your writing for several years, yea, even before that fateful day I became a clericalist by virtue of being ordained. In any event, for me at least, it's always been about the post, though bringing it into the greater context of this weblog's theme of deconstructing Orthodoxy by means of the kinds of things converts say. The particular example here is an attempt to unmoor the Orthodox liturgical tradition from its ancient origins, which I think anyone with even a little education in such matters can tell you is dead wrong. And I do believe that this overarching theme does not stem from a real faith in Christ and love for His people but from a real rejection of His Church and a desire not to live by its life-giving, salvific path. That's an ideological stance which almost always leads to this deconstructive mode of theologizing, irrespective of who happens to be following it. Whether that's you or not is between you and God. The post was a personal attack from the start, and a rather sarcastic one, to boot! But I don’t think you really mean to veer the conversation away from personal attacks so long as what I write is characterized as clericalism (which is, again, ironically one of the local attitudes I’ve been fighting for the last three years up here in Little Moscow). But I suspect my sin here is simply in being ordained. Alas.

Just to be clear: I’m not your pastor and I don’t think of myself as your pastor. I wasn’t offering pastoral advice or comment, just the experience of having read your writing for several years, yea, even before that fateful day I became a clericalist by virtue of being ordained.

In any event, for me at least, it’s always been about the post, though bringing it into the greater context of this weblog’s theme of deconstructing Orthodoxy by means of the kinds of things converts say. The particular example here is an attempt to unmoor the Orthodox liturgical tradition from its ancient origins, which I think anyone with even a little education in such matters can tell you is dead wrong. And I do believe that this overarching theme does not stem from a real faith in Christ and love for His people but from a real rejection of His Church and a desire not to live by its life-giving, salvific path. That’s an ideological stance which almost always leads to this deconstructive mode of theologizing, irrespective of who happens to be following it. Whether that’s you or not is between you and God.

]]> By: Huw http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/comment-page-1/#comment-596 Huw Wed, 30 May 2007 21:50:19 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2007/05/27/ocd/#comment-596 Deep breath. It's a fun topic of discussion and I have a lot of Orthodox friends and readers. Also, such topics are church geekery: a given topic on the blog and one I greatly enjoy. Also, I've learned a lot about my own mistakes over the course of the last year and a half in this very conversation. Since the conversation has been so fruitful, I'll expect to continue it. Also I've learned that some of my readership find the previous "also" to include their journey as well so my learnings seem to be helping others. I wouldn't say "proud" but rather "honest" as in, I've moved to another stage of the journey: I've made no attempt to hide it, and I keep blogging about it for all the above reason. We've now made this totally personal and are no longer discussing the post - although you may come up with some "pastoral" reason to say that's important. We need to drop this topic. I believe we've hit the point where "did JC write the liturgy attributed to him" has been hashed up, yes? Deep breath.

It’s a fun topic of discussion and I have a lot of Orthodox friends and readers.

Also, such topics are church geekery: a given topic on the blog and one I greatly enjoy.

Also, I’ve learned a lot about my own mistakes over the course of the last year and a half in this very conversation. Since the conversation has been so fruitful, I’ll expect to continue it.

Also I’ve learned that some of my readership find the previous “also” to include their journey as well so my learnings seem to be helping others.

I wouldn’t say “proud” but rather “honest” as in, I’ve moved to another stage of the journey: I’ve made no attempt to hide it, and I keep blogging about it for all the above reason.

We’ve now made this totally personal and are no longer discussing the post – although you may come up with some “pastoral” reason to say that’s important.

We need to drop this topic.

I believe we’ve hit the point where “did JC write the liturgy attributed to him” has been hashed up, yes?

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