Comments on: Tzvee http://raphael.doxos.com/2008/02/08/tzvee/ We are Flesh-and-Spirit on a journey to Integral Unity with God. Thu, 04 Dec 2008 19:49:24 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.5 By: Huw http://raphael.doxos.com/2008/02/08/tzvee/#comment-2230 Huw Sat, 09 Feb 2008 15:05:05 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2008/02/08/tzvee/#comment-2230 It's interesting then, that they are not mentioned in the context of praise, or as elder brothers from whom Christians might continue to learn. The prayer - in its older and newer forms - asks for conversion, removal from darkness in ways that Christians do not pray for others. It is a parallel in thought - although, thankfully no longer in language - to the constant anti-Semitism in the Byzantine rite, especially in the verses woven into the psalms and canticles at Vespers and Matins. Christians pretend to pray in a vacuum as if none of their history or persecution would matter. But such can not be. You do strike at the reasoning very well, however: <i>The converse, it would seem, is not true; if Christianity is a load of hogwash, Judaism can still be true.</i> This is the main problem: the existence of those who use the same Biblical text and yet come to a different conclusion seems to be the Christian's not-so-secret shame. In psychological terms, the Church treats Jews like the shadow. The liturgy as it was and as it stands now says nothing about joy in our shared heritage and a lot about fear that, really, Christianity is wrong. It’s interesting then, that they are not mentioned in the context of praise, or as elder brothers from whom Christians might continue to learn.

The prayer - in its older and newer forms - asks for conversion, removal from darkness in ways that Christians do not pray for others. It is a parallel in thought - although, thankfully no longer in language - to the constant anti-Semitism in the Byzantine rite, especially in the verses woven into the psalms and canticles at Vespers and Matins. Christians pretend to pray in a vacuum as if none of their history or persecution would matter. But such can not be.

You do strike at the reasoning very well, however: The converse, it would seem, is not true; if Christianity is a load of hogwash, Judaism can still be true.

This is the main problem: the existence of those who use the same Biblical text and yet come to a different conclusion seems to be the Christian’s not-so-secret shame. In psychological terms, the Church treats Jews like the shadow. The liturgy as it was and as it stands now says nothing about joy in our shared heritage and a lot about fear that, really, Christianity is wrong.

]]> By: Chris Jones http://raphael.doxos.com/2008/02/08/tzvee/#comment-2229 Chris Jones Sat, 09 Feb 2008 04:57:23 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/2008/02/08/tzvee/#comment-2229 It's clear that Tzvee doesn't like us Christians, and given our shameful history I cannot blame him. But our worship is the expression of our faith, and if we tailor our worship to the sensibilities of those who do not share our faith, we run the risk of denying that faith. In this case, it is our confession that Jesus is, in fact, the saviour of all mankind that is at risk. Strictly speaking, I have no right to an opinion on the specific prayer that Tzvee does not like, because I am not a Roman Catholic and I have not even read the prayer. But I will say this: it makes sense that the Jewish people would be specifically mentioned (even if no other people is so mentioned), because according to our faith the Jewish people -- uniquely among all the peoples of the earth -- have a central and critical role in the economy of salvation. They are not a people or nation just like any other. There is an ineluctable relationship between Christianity and Judaism, because Christianity is dependent on Judaism, in this sense: if Judaism is not true, then Christianity cannot be true, and in fact can make no sense. (The converse, it would seem, is not true; if Christianity is a load of hogwash, Judaism can still be true. That, I suppose, is what the Jews believe.) So if Christianity is indeed true, then the Jews must be recognized as our elder brothers in the faith. And if that is so, the fact that we do not confess the same faith and stand before God as brothers is a tragedy. That is why "the conversion of the Jews" is not quite the same issue as "the conversion of everybody else." At least that is what Fr Golitzin taught me. It’s clear that Tzvee doesn’t like us Christians, and given our shameful history I cannot blame him. But our worship is the expression of our faith, and if we tailor our worship to the sensibilities of those who do not share our faith, we run the risk of denying that faith. In this case, it is our confession that Jesus is, in fact, the saviour of all mankind that is at risk.

Strictly speaking, I have no right to an opinion on the specific prayer that Tzvee does not like, because I am not a Roman Catholic and I have not even read the prayer. But I will say this: it makes sense that the Jewish people would be specifically mentioned (even if no other people is so mentioned), because according to our faith the Jewish people — uniquely among all the peoples of the earth — have a central and critical role in the economy of salvation. They are not a people or nation just like any other.

There is an ineluctable relationship between Christianity and Judaism, because Christianity is dependent on Judaism, in this sense: if Judaism is not true, then Christianity cannot be true, and in fact can make no sense. (The converse, it would seem, is not true; if Christianity is a load of hogwash, Judaism can still be true. That, I suppose, is what the Jews believe.) So if Christianity is indeed true, then the Jews must be recognized as our elder brothers in the faith. And if that is so, the fact that we do not confess the same faith and stand before God as brothers is a tragedy. That is why “the conversion of the Jews” is not quite the same issue as “the conversion of everybody else.”

At least that is what Fr Golitzin taught me.

]]>