Comments on: A History of Liturgical Ministry (2) http://raphael.doxos.com/2008/05/07/a-history-of-liturgical-ministry-2/ Some place between 40 and Death Sat, 06 Sep 2008 01:07:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Huw http://raphael.doxos.com/2008/05/07/a-history-of-liturgical-ministry-2/#comment-2942 Huw Mon, 12 May 2008 16:02:27 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/?p=2617#comment-2942 Hi Again, Is this Alex that was a member of SGN when I first joined, and then went on to join the OCA? Hi Again,

Is this Alex that was a member of SGN when I first joined, and then went on to join the OCA?

]]> By: Alex Martin http://raphael.doxos.com/2008/05/07/a-history-of-liturgical-ministry-2/#comment-2936 Alex Martin Mon, 12 May 2008 00:34:45 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/?p=2617#comment-2936 Hullo Huw: I don't think Margaret Barker is claiming that the Church is the real continuation of Israel. And Schmemann and Dix were not reading the same sources as Barker,not all of them anyway, nor were they working on the same hypothesis. It may be that mediaeval writers were closer to a still-living tradition, which has since disappeared, altho I don't assert this, of course. It may be an idea worth pursuing, though. The synagogue-as-source of Christian ministry and liturgy is essentially a Protestant idea, a reaction to the high sacrificial theology and liturgy of the Church. The synagogue idea may be wrong, and Barker may be on to the reasons why. I don't know whether Barker's ideas have been taken up by other scholars, but the blurbs on her books lead me to think that at least a few of them are interested in the notions. And mediaeval myths may have something to tell us, just as ancient apocryphal and gnostic and other writings may have something to tell us about what the earliest Christians were thinking and doing. Hullo Huw: I don’t think Margaret Barker is claiming that the Church is the real continuation of Israel. And Schmemann and Dix were not reading the same sources as Barker,not all of them anyway, nor were they working on the same hypothesis. It may be that mediaeval writers were closer to a still-living tradition, which has since disappeared, altho I don’t assert this, of course. It may be an idea worth pursuing, though. The synagogue-as-source of Christian ministry and liturgy is essentially a Protestant idea, a reaction to the high sacrificial theology and liturgy of the Church. The synagogue idea may be wrong, and Barker may be on to the reasons why. I don’t know whether Barker’s ideas have been taken up by other scholars, but the blurbs on her books lead me to think that at least a few of them are interested in the notions. And mediaeval myths may have something to tell us, just as ancient apocryphal and gnostic and other writings may have something to tell us about what the earliest Christians were thinking and doing.

]]> By: Huw http://raphael.doxos.com/2008/05/07/a-history-of-liturgical-ministry-2/#comment-2935 Huw Sun, 11 May 2008 16:05:43 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/?p=2617#comment-2935 Hi Alex - I've read Margaret Barker before. She seems to be the only person who feels this way - although I know many mediaeval writers were convinced of such views. I think the weight of evidence may be read in a biased way to come to her conclusions though. Most modern research seems to point away from the myths we told ourselves in the middle ages (and not before). And those myths make us look like something we are not: a continuation for Israel where Modern Judaism is only a pretender. Such things do not come up in Schmemann (East) or Dix (West). Is there a liturgist or historian from the main stream with such a POV? Hi Alex - I’ve read Margaret Barker before. She seems to be the only person who feels this way - although I know many mediaeval writers were convinced of such views. I think the weight of evidence may be read in a biased way to come to her conclusions though.

Most modern research seems to point away from the myths we told ourselves in the middle ages (and not before). And those myths make us look like something we are not: a continuation for Israel where Modern Judaism is only a pretender. Such things do not come up in Schmemann (East) or Dix (West).

Is there a liturgist or historian from the main stream with such a POV?

]]> By: Alex Martin http://raphael.doxos.com/2008/05/07/a-history-of-liturgical-ministry-2/#comment-2933 Alex Martin Sun, 11 May 2008 05:44:43 +0000 http://raphael.doxos.com/?p=2617#comment-2933 Rick Fabian states: "Hence the Christian liturgical ministers we know spring from Jewish synagogues, and not from any distinctive creation by Jesus or the early Church." This is the prevailing view today,but it may not be true. Margaret Barker's thesis is worth noting: that Jesus knew who he was..the Melchizedek High Priest of the First Temple, come to restore the Temple of Solomon...she claims that Christian liturgy and theology, priesthood and all, derive in one way or another from the Temple...I commend her book to you: "Temple Theology, an Introduction". Also please see her website www.margaretbarker.com for a much better summary of her ideas than I present here. Rick Fabian states: “Hence the Christian liturgical ministers we know spring from Jewish synagogues, and not from any distinctive creation by Jesus or the early Church.” This is the prevailing view today,but it may not be true. Margaret Barker’s thesis is worth noting: that Jesus knew who he was..the Melchizedek High Priest of the First Temple, come to restore the Temple of Solomon…she claims that Christian liturgy and theology, priesthood and all, derive in one way or another from the Temple…I commend her book to you: “Temple Theology, an Introduction”. Also please see her website http://www.margaretbarker.com for a much better summary of her ideas than I present here.

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