Didn’t want to leave…
9 July 2008 - 7 תמוז 5768 by Huw
erge » made a comment on a recent post and I think I need to reply in full to it…
I know you’re angry at the Catholic (Orthodox) Church for not changing to accommodate your desires - I think you really didn’t want to leave but were honest enough to admit the church can’t change that way…
I came on everyone’s radar when I wrote “I was in hell“. It was a good essay. I earned 30 pieces of silver $200 for it from a Republican magazine and I know it’s been around the net more times than some of my happier pieces. That’s what propaganda does.
But it’s not enough of the story for people to understand what I’m doing… There was a lot before that.
As I’ve said in several places, my problems with ECUSA arose over Creedal Chaos.
This is what I wrote to Fr Victor when he asked me what I was rejecting:
…I can say that I do (or do not) reject the doctrine X but even as I say it, I know it’s only a doctrine in some places - not in others. Do I reject the ordination of women? While, I say yes, I reject it, Anglicans fall on both sides of that. There are dioceses that will accommodate me no matter how I answer. Do I reject the teachings of Bishop Jack Spong? Yes, I do, but there are many supportive places to go, either way. Do I believe in a celibate clergy, transubstantiation and veneration of the BVM on Saturdays? I can make a list of parishes longer than your arm that would welcome me. Do I reject all of that as sinful “papistry” and instead want praise and worship music, with nothing harder to understand than “we worship you, Lord; bring us before your glory”? There are many parishes, dioceses and clergy that really fear the use of liturgical worship and instead want more-Protestant style services. Do I reject the ideas that the scriptures are inspired, that Jesus rose from the dead, that there is a personal God out there? There are many clergy and teachers like that. Do I think communion should be given to everyone who comes as a sign of God’s love because to require them to be baptized and convert is just too hard? Do I think all religions are equal and there’s no reason to be anything other than “spiritual”? Do I support or reject the blessing of gay unions? Anglicans have both sides of any of these discussions.
It doesn’t matter how I answer any of these questions: I can still be an Anglican. It gets really vague after a while! It seems one needn’t be a Christian to be an Anglican. It can be like liturgical Unitarian Universalism.
And that, I think, is what I reject: the fact that there is no canon, no ability to tell when you’ve strayed. How can I ask the Good Shepherd to bring me back inside the fold when all the fences are invisible and porous? I remember the old joke about “Anglican Vague”: “All things in moderation, especially moderation.”
Six years ago, with Episcopal Church canons and General Convention resolutions laying before them, a court of bishops said that it found no reason to rule that resolutions were the mind of the church and so binding on everyone. So the resolutions of the church are non-binding on Bishops who want to break them. The result of that ruling was three years of Bishops doing whatever they wanted, noting that the resolutions were non-binding. The second result of that ruling has been proliferation of New Canons as new rules can’t just be resolutions, they have to be canons.
So bishops that won’t ordain women are having their power to rule their dioceses removed (after being promised for 20+ years that they would be left alone because of their scruples), bishops who stand at odds with their clergy are being sued by the clergy. Conservative Bishops who disagree with the teachings of a large, liberal majority are consecrating their own bishops so that they can get a majority again. And every time there was a meeting, I held my breath waiting for a schism that never came, and I confess I would be hard pressed to tell you in advance which side I would have taken.
I look to Orthodoxy for boundaries, borders, clear guidance on the way to Salvation. I’m seeking unity in the Body of Christ, and I realized that one can not have all the vagaries of doctrine and still imagine that we are “one”. Father, I remember your sermon on the Sunday before Pentecost, speaking of Our Lord’s High Priestly Prayer that we all “may be one”. And I just didn’t find any hope for unity outside of the Church - and I looked (even outside of Christianity for a while). I was seeking a way of life that was the Gospel…
I think that’s important: please notice I never said anything there about gay. I never said anything there about my sexuality or confusion about the same. As I wrote at another time, maybe the same liberalism that allowed churches to welcome gays was what caused them to forget the virgin birth. So I went looking for a Church that had the virgin birth (etc) and I was also honest: I knew what the Church taught about sexuality and it was my decision that if the Church was what it said it was, then she must be right about sex too.
What I found was something rather different from the advertising…
From the get-go, I found parishes that had gay couples in them: Antiochian, GOA and OCA. From the get-go, I found people who had very interesting ideas about what it all means. From the get go I realised there was a disconnect between the hype about a church that never changes and the reality of liturgy and theology that evolves - certainly more slowly than in other places… but look at the difference between the Roman church’s understanding of divorce and the Orthodox churches’ teaching on the same. Things change. And not just liturgically, but also theologically, morally and ethically.
To ask questions of the clergy (in the pages of this blog or in person) was to learn more about the *clergy* than about the faith. Priest 1 says the church is infallible - it’s in the creed. His friend, Priest 2 says otherwise. But both say, “ask your priest and do what he says…” Local option is the only thing going.
Ask what the central tenants of Orthodoxy are and you will be told any number of things that seem perfectly wonderful - until you realise that the parish up the road is slightly different. Or until you see that the Western Right is also different - only more so. What one parish/ priest/ bishop/ jurisdiction says is vitally important to one’s salvation is exactly what is ignored next door. Creationism? Evolution? Sexuality? Calendars? Doors open or closed? Non-Orthodox getting the Antidoron? Music? Women in pants? Liturgical Language? For some parties anyone of these issues can make or break the “rightness” of a given parish. And while “obey your priest” is intended to imply “he’s your doctor and knows what your soul needs”, what usually comes out is “Orthodoxy, the Disorganised Religion”.
And to ask questions of the laity (in the pages of this blog or in person) was to learn that, lo… Orthodoxy has just as many opinions as Anglicanism does with one difference
Orthodoxy is dysfunctional about them: she is in denial.
Rome, too, has all these opinions, but she has Level Bosses at ever turn to squash anything different from the prevailing pontifical fashion. Orthodoxy hasn’t such authority. She has only the ability to pretend everything is ok. But the internet changes all that (as Anglicanism has discovered): it is possible to see into the liberalism of the parish next door when someone blogs. (Discover attitudes of the Orthodox towards each other to see what I mean. It’s not pretty.)
What I discovered was a denomination rather like any other - fallible, filled with humans and quite wonderful. Special - like every other church is special. Like the Methodists and Episcopalians, Orthodoxy has some things on paper in a room - and no one even pretends to follow them unless someone is looking.
Having discovered that: there was nothing to keep me there, as such. A straight, married, ex-Anglican clergyman may find a lot to keep him busy. But there was nothing there for a gay man who was playing by the rules… when there was no need to. Why stay in a corner of the church where one is asked to go in denial… I could have been like the other gay couples I knew (or knew of) and just not hold hands at Church: but I’m an adult. I don’t need to play games like that, plus I blog - and honestly so. I’d no desire to cause a scandal. Just to move on.
She is, today, where Anglicanism was 50 years ago. It may take Orthodoxy 200 or 300 years to move the same distance that Anglicanism did in 50… but she is moving. I think Orthodoxy could be quite awesome if it would only step into the light of honesty. But when Orthodox (0r Romans or Anglicans) start acting like there’s something there that is not… then I get angry.
And I say so - quite loudly.
I’m not angry at “the Church” but rather angry at people who are unable to be honest about what the Church is. Yes, there is a part of me that is angry at being sold one thing only to find another when I got home and opened the box. But that still is people, people in denial about what they have. My Protestant brain kicks in there, “the Church” is the people. There is no mystical, invisible “real church” behind the scenes. What we see is the church. It’s happening now. It’s connected to everything else, yes - living and dead - but it’s local in time and space.
I love the eastern liturgy - and I miss it muchly: the music, the chanting, the beauty. I love the theology - and I spend a lot of time convincing western friends that they need to look Eastward before they go all post-modern.
Creedal Chaos seems to be SNAFU in all of the Church - in every denomination. Where the Rubber meets the road, the creed is only a roadmap - and not always used by the drivers (and nearly never read the same way anyway).
Remember the first part of “Snafu” is “Situation Normal”. The church is AFU always - because she has humans. After years of not being ok with that, am I.


“Remember the first part of “Snafu” is “Situation Normal”. The church is AFU always - because she has humans.”
Thanks for this, its surprisingly comforting to me right now. I may have to print it out and put it on my wall to remember!
Hmm,
I think that in this case I am glad to have a bit of Latino attitude about it all. A Latin American has no problem believing that the Roman Church is the True Church while complaining about the mess, not going to worship as often as he/she should, etc. That is, we see no logical contradiction between the claim and the reality. More than that, most Latinos are RC’s for life. My first cousin, who has been a Disciple of Christ since he got married (and is now a grandfather older than I), still says that he is a Catholic who simply attends a DoC church.
I will have to think on the why of it, and maybe send you an e-mail later, Huw. But, we Latinos could probably be accused of having too much of the “Don’t worry; be happy,” attitude. Or maybe even, “It’s not how you feel; it’s how you look!” Nevertheless, I suspect that some of the way we handle Church may have some answers to the constant northern European worry about how to have it “just right (patent pending).”
Well said my friend, well said!
Thanks, Huw, for taking my observations in the spirit they were given and for the online discussion of them.
Arturo and I understand what Fr Ernesto means. It’s like with a wonderful New York-born ethnic-Italian family I know: they don’t practise and in fact are not overtly religious but thanks to the culture there’s a Catholic sensibility about so much of what they do. (How long that will last beyond this generation is a valid question.) They would never join, go to or identify with a Protestant church. Italians, other Latin people and indeed other Mediterranean people have lived with the hypocrisy of the clergy for more than 1,500 years and just ignore it and enjoy life. It’s the southern European version of tolerant conservatism. Like I say, we sin and know it but don’t try and bend the church to say it’s OK. (Because we know the church and the universe don’t work that way.)
I agree: “disorganised religion” is - mostly - an endearment. It’s not intended to be logical or consistent.
I don’t want it to be - ritual magic is that. Religion is not ritual magic (well, outside of WASP culture, anyway :-))
I’m not complaining about the inconsistency. I’m noting that such was identical and, given that, why bother with any other problem? Wouldn’t it be easier to go someplace chaotic but with less problems?
Fr. Ernesto,
True enough. I had an uncle who converted to evangelical Protestantism only to come back to Catholicism without much fanfare. I have also know die-hard evangelicals who carry around pictures of the Virgin of Guadalupe in their wallet. Religion in Latin America is a lot of times not about doctrines and which side of the line in the sand you stand on, but rather it forms who you are as a person.
One reason I cannot stand the conservative Catholic Internet, for example, is because of their worship of the Pope and bishops. As a Latin male, I cannot help but think that such sycophancy is a bit effeminate: “ellos quieren que yo sea el monaguillo del cura” (they want me to be that stupid priest’s altar boy). (I don’t mean this at all in any homophobic sense.) While I do go to Mass every Sunday and sometimes am edyfied by it, another part of me is spiritually sitting in the town plaza smoking a cigarette, telling dirty jokes to my buddies while I wait for my wife to get out of Mass. You know, how Catholicism is like in Mexico for my compadres.
We have always been used to the Church being a mess, of the priest being a money-grubbing distant and shady character who is probably doing bad things with his maid, and so on and so forth. Catholicism is part of the Latin soul, but so is anti-clericalism. Personally, when I used to go to the early Spanish Mass in my parish as a teenager, I used to stand in the back with the young men who had just come over from Mexico. They didn’t receive Communion, and they seemed pretty distracted during all of it, but they were there because they had to be there. It was just part of who they were. That is where I remain to this day I suppose: in the building, but right by the door.
Wow, interesting stuff. I just got done reading some of your other posts about where you’ve been lately and I experienced much of what you have. Especially the part about overthinking. lol
All the best to you, Huw.
Angry -
Thanks. I saw that you’ve posted this in the Nicholas Forum. I usually like to be told that you’re doing stuff like that… but my referral logs also see it :-)
Didn’t you open the door to this being shared elsewhere when you put a “share this” link at the bottom of your post?
Yes - but the “share this” think tells me when it is shared - gives me stats and even tells me how many times it’s been mailed… And comments collect IP addresses. As I said, I usually like to be told.
You are a strange and wonderful man. You should come join us on my forum.
Thanks, Scott. You’re very kind. I’ll hold forth here, though: I tend to find the comments a bit more civil than many places - and I power to delete :-)
Understood.