Doxos

Cui Bono?

If you reject any or all of the following:

  1. God will punish us with eternal hell for our sins.
  2. God will judge us for even the slightest imperfection.
  3. Salvation means only having your sins “forgiven” and not being sent to hell after you die.
  4. Jesus is the only means of “getting saved”.
  5. Once saved God will count your debt “paid for” and you can get into heaven when you’re dead.

If you reject that equation or a majority of its points what’s the point of being a Christian? What did Jesus come to do or do for us?

6 Responses to “Cui Bono?”

James of Chicago
August 20th, 2009 at 11:53 am

The answer to this question is the famous saying of the Eastern Church, “God became man so that man might become divine.” It’s not about getting to heaven when you die or avoiding the punishments of a wrathful, law-giving god but about being transformed by the Divine Nature through Christ.

As far as I know, Christ is the only one who claims to do this. All other religions to my knowledge make no such claims. Christ’s claims are unique. He didn’t say follow his teaching. He didn’t say follow my example. He said “follow me.” I’m agnostic as to whether one can get “saved” by other religions (keep in mind this means different things to different religions) but as far as I know in Christ humanity and God are united and I have the opportunity to participate in that unity through faith. So this is what Jesus came to do for us: re-unite us to God.

peter
August 20th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

Hmmmm. What’s up with the straw men? With James of Chicago, I think there’s something fishy about those questions on this blog. About the only thing I could agree with is point 4 on the cosmic scope of Christ’s life, death, and resurrection.

Why be a Christian if not simply to escape from “hell”? My answer to that restatement of your question is, “Because that is what Reality looks like.” Divine Love stronger than death, transforming those who accept it from glory to glory.

As it says in today’s Epistle reading: For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Huw
August 20th, 2009 at 1:56 pm

Not so much a test… I wanna engage here. I have a lot of readers for whom neither my hell-fire precis nor your Athanasian summation make sense.

What I’ve known since first becoming Orthodox is that the “Officially Orthodox Position” (which includes the agnosticism you cited) is way more liberal than most folks imagine.

So I’m trying to engage these “two sides” that are, I think, the same thing.

Huw
August 21st, 2009 at 11:25 am

Peter – again, not so much a straw man… although I *totally* understand how it would seem so from an Eastern POV.

Here’s my logic in asking at all:

1) I have a lot of readers who rejected the hell-fire preaching of their youth
2) Some left the faith entirely. Some became “liberal” theologically. Some became Orthodox.
3) I think the first a bit of a hard choice. But I think the second one is a major cop-out. The third – which you guys have cited – is not one often heard, but I think it would be interesting to have group two wrestle with the third option.

Sadly… both here and on my FB… the only people who answered were groups 1 and 3…

Proving my point about cop-outs among the liberal group who just toss out anything they don’t like and assume not that “it’s wrong and we need to fix it” but rather “it’s wrong and we don’t need it at all”.

The Other James
August 24th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

Okay, I’ll bite. Let’s see …

1. No, God will not punish us with eternal hell fire. I agree with Vernon Staley, author of “The Catholic Religion,” who says that God embraces every soul, but not all souls accept His embrace. I guess some would say that’s rather Orthodox.

2. God will judge us for what? Of course not because He is merciful. Grace covers our imperfections. If this one were so we’d all be going to hell.

3. Why is the word “forgiven” in quotation marks? I tend to think that dumbed down American Protestantism has come up with the idea that we’re “saved” by being forgiven of all the sins we’ve ever committed or ever will. Also there is the once saved always saved thing. I dunno, but I tend to think that even with Protestantism there is the idea that salvation is about a relationship with the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. Maybe?

4. Again with the quotation marks. Jesus is the only way to the Father as He said Himself. What that looks like or how that works is a mystery.

5. Debt paid for? Yeah, Anselm of Canterbury rears his mitred head. All I know is that sin is really bad and can keep a person from the beatific vision (i.e. being saved). Jesus’ death on the cross and resurrection makes it possible for me to be “saved.” I’m honestly tired of trying to figure out the mechanisms of eschatology or whatever.